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By: Dr. Brian Chilton and Curtis Evelo | January 24, 2023
Dr. Brian Chilton and Curtis Evelo discuss the final aspect of salvation which is called “glorification.” They note how glorification comes in the intermediate state after one’s death. They also speak to the resurrected body at the Second Coming of Christ and the final culmination of the glorification process seen in the New Creation.
1. What do we mean by “glorification”?
2. Are we glorified at death? If so, what happens at the point of death? Where do we go?
3. Is the heavenly abode in the intermediate state the same as Paradise?
4. How are we glorified at the Second Coming of Christ?
5. What can we know about our glorified bodies?
6. How is our glorification found in the New Creation?
7. Can we be assured that we will partake in the glorification that God provides?
About our Hosts
Brian G. Chilton earned his Doctor of Philosophy in the Theology and Apologetics program at Liberty University. He is the host of The Bellator Christi Podcast and the founder of Bellator Christi. Brian received his Master of Divinity in Theology from Liberty University (with high distinction); his Bachelor of Science in Religious Studies and Philosophy from Gardner-Webb University (with honors); and earned a Certificate in Christian Apologetics from Biola University. Also, he is enrolled in Clinical Pastoral Education to better learn how to empower those around him. Brian is a member of the Evangelical Theological Society and the Evangelical Philosophical Society. Brian has served in pastoral ministry for nearly 20 years and currently serves as a clinical hospice chaplain and serves as an interim pastor in northwestern North Carolina.
https://www.amazon.com/Laymans-Manual-Christian-Apologetics-Essentials/dp/1532697104
Curtis Evelo is a cattle rancher at the E6 Hereford Ranch in St. Ignatius, Montana. Curtis is the Co-Host and Producer of the Bellator Christi Podcast. He often teaches and speaks at his church Cornerstone Faith Center in St. Ignatius. Curtis provides a common-sense approach to Christianity as he contemplates the wonders of God’s creation in Big Sky Country. Curtis serves as the Vice-President of Bellator Christi Ministries, a contributor, and the co-host of the Bellator Christi Podcast. His research interests include Jewish studies in the New Testament, Old Testament typologies, and studies on free will.
Copyright, 2023. Bellator Christi.
Hi Dr. Chilton. I and my readers were honored by your visit to and comments on my blog. We have one more question for you. How would you respond to this statement: Never believe an extra-ordinary claim (such as a dead person sighting) when the eyewitness status of the person making the claim is in dispute.
https://lutherwasnotbornagaincom.wordpress.com/2023/01/30/never-believe-an-extra-ordinary-claim-when-the-eyewitness-status-of-the-person-making-the-claim-is-in-dispute/
Thanks,
Gary
It was my pleasure, Gary. I may feature your question in a upcoming article, my friend.
Blessings,
Brian
Theologian Les Bridgeman responded to my question with this very telling response:
“…scholars can dispute anything and everything, but ancient people had reason to believe that these [the Gospels] were eyewitness accounts. But all of this, including my post, is only focusing on the logical or intellectual side of things. This means that if everything I have written in this comment and in this post was wrong, there is still something else that will not go away–the experiential side. Many people have had deep and meaningful experiences that have led them to faith in Christ.”
Bingo. No matter what evidence we skeptics present to Christians demonstrating the weakness of the historical evidence for the bodily resurrection of Jesus, conservative Christians will completely ignore it due to their subjective perception of the presence of the resurrected Jesus within them. Who needs historical evidence for the Resurrection when you can perceive the presence of the dead person in question alive and well within you??
Christians such as yourself, Dr. Chilton, will NEVER be able to objectively evaluate the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus while you continue to maintain the delusion that you can perceive the presence of his ghost (spirit) within you! I’m not trying to be rude, just honest: Please ask yourself this question: How reliable are subjective perceptions?
But couldn’t the same be said for skeptical bias? One could argue that if one absolutely deems it impossible that the spiritual world exists, then one would deny a spirit’s presence even if one were standing before the person. I would argue that subjective perceptions are reliable given certain criteria. We will discuss this further as the season continues and even into Season 7.
Thanks for sharing your perspective!
Good morning, Brian.
Anyone who claims to know as a fact that the spirit world does not exist is a fool. Most fellow counter apologists that I know would never make this claim. What we would say is that there is no good evidence that the spirit world currently operates within our universe.
How certain are you that the spirit presence which you perceive within you is the resurrected Jesus Christ? 100%?
I am curious to learn more about your beliefs in the spiritual world. Would you call yourself a believer in God but not necessarily in Christianity?
As to my worldview, I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to believe that the spirit world currently operates in our universe. As to the origin of our universe, the experts are divided. I accept expert consensus opinion on all issues, so I will withhold judgment on this issue until and if the experts reach a consensus. Therefore, it is possible that a spirit created our universe. It is possible that someone or something else created our universe.
How certain are you that the spirit presence which you perceive within you is the resurrected Jesus Christ? 100%?
I have found that many Christian apologists are very uncomfortable discussing their perception of Jesus living within them (otherwise known as the “testimony of the Holy Spirit”) with counter-apologists and other skeptics. I once asked evangelical NT scholar Michael Licona this question and he refused to answer it. When I persisted, he claimed I was trying to force him into an “evangelical stereotype”. When I asked Baptist apologist Randal Rauser the same question, he absolutely refused to continue the discussion. Growing up evangelical myself, I know that this is a central teaching of evangelical Christianity.
Why do you think this question makes so many Christian apologists so uncomfortable, Dr. Chilton?
I certainly cannot speak for anyone else, but I think that many find the spiritual domain uncomfortable because it speaks to aspects that have not received a great deal of attention in recent years. Michael Heiser and others have spotlighted the importance of the spiritual world in their books “Unseen Realm” and “Supernatural.” I, myself, believe the inner witness (or “inner testimony”) of the Holy Spirit is an important topic to consider. We actually have a podcast lined up to discuss this issue later in Season 6.
So you do perceive the presence of Jesus within you. Very good. How certain are you that the spirit presence which you perceive within you is the resurrected Jesus Christ? 100%?
You seem reluctant to express the certainty of your belief in the presence of Jesus within you, Dr. Chilton. Isn’t that a problem? If you were to ask me if I perceive the presence of my wife, I would not hesitate a second to state that I am 100% certain of her presence. I see her. I hear her. I can touch her. I have no doubt.
Do you have doubts about the presence of Jesus, Dr. Chilton?
No, none at all. Unfortunately, I am not able to respond to every comment as quickly as they are posted. We will deal with this issue on an upcoming episode entitled “The Inner Witness.” It will come later in Season 6.
Wow! !00% certainty. Not one shred of doubt. No wonder you are a believer.
Who needs historical evidence for the Resurrection with that kind of certainty! And that is why it is a waste of time for counter apologists and other skeptics to debate evangelical Christians regarding the resurrection of Jesus. No amount of historical evidence is ever going to change the evangelical Christian’s mind if he or she can perceive the presence within them of the dead man in question. If we could find the bones of Jesus they still would not believe.
Can you see how your perception of the presence of the resurrected Jesus within you taints/biases your evaluation of the historical evidence for the Resurrection, Dr. Chilton? How can it not?
This is why the scholarship of evangelical New Testament scholars and apologists cannot be trusted. Their objectivity is tainted by their delusion that the ghost of Jesus dwells somewhere within their bodies.
Do you believe that it is possible that there could be a spiritual world that exists in a different and separate dimension from our own, but one that could interact with ours in some capacity? Consciousness, in my estimation, would be consistent with the spiritual domain.
I believe that anything is possible. I accept consensus expert opinion on all issues. If the experts reach a consensus that a spirit world occasional intrudes into our universe and violates the laws of physics, I will accept that consensus opinion. Until then, I will continue to believe that the laws of physics are inviolable within our universe.
If you believe that you can perceive a spirit within you that must be pretty strong evidence for you that the spirit world does interact in our universe. However, how should educated non-Christians evaluate your claim? Should we abandon belief in the inviolability of the laws of physics just because you and millions of other Christians have a subjective perception that a spirit lives within you? Are subject personal perceptions reliable? Should universal truths be based on subject personal perceptions or good objective evidence?
A few responses are in order. Concerning scholarly consensus, that is an important thing. However, the better method is to follow the data where it leads. Truth is truth no matter who espouses it, whereas falsehood is false no matter who proclaims it. When it comes to historical consensus, the vast majority of scholars believe something changed the earliest disciples. The best data suggests that it was the resurrection. But concerning consensus, one must hold that with the utmost of care. Because at one time, both scientists and theologians believed that the sun revolved around the earth. The consensus, in this case, was wrong.
“Concerning scholarly consensus, that is an important thing. However, the better method is to follow the data where it leads. Truth is truth no matter who espouses it, whereas falsehood is false no matter who proclaims it. “
Yes, truth is truth, but who is the final arbiter of what is and what is not truth? You? Me? With that kind of thinking, every individual, regardless of his or her education and training, is the expert: the final arbiter of truth.
I am a physician. People of my educational level (doctors, attorneys, judges, engineers, scientists, etc.) accept expert consensus opinion on all issues. ALL issues. In our view, respect for expert consensus opinion is the bedrock of our advanced society. Without it, our society would descend into chaos as every individual would see himself as the final authority.
So, no. You are wrong, Brian. The better method is NOT to try to research the issue yourself as a non-expert. This is the thinking of conspiracy theorists. It is not wise. Trusting expert consensus opinion is the most reliable method of truth discovery yet known to humankind. Can they be wrong? Yes. They do not claim to be infallible. But again, expert consensus opinion is the best method we have.
“When it comes to historical consensus, the vast majority of scholars believe something changed the earliest disciples. The best data suggests that it was the resurrection.”
Radical conversions and change of behavior have happened throughout history, in thousands of individuals and in all religions. Therefore, a dramatic conversion/change in behavior is NOT a good indicator of the correct worldview or religion. And your “best” data is based on a very big assumption; the assumption that the Gospels, the only texts which describe people seeing, hearing, and touching a walking, talking first century corpse, are eyewitness accounts. The fact is, the eyewitness status of these ancient texts is disputed. Disputed eyewitness testimony, especially when it is 20 centuries old, is not good evidence.
Bottom line, Brian. You have already admitted that you are 100% certain that the resurrected Jesus lives inside of your body. This is irrational, delusional thinking. You can’t see him. You can’t hear him. You can’t touch him, yet you are ONE HUNDRED percent sure he is there living inside you. NO amount of historical evidence is going to convince you he is dead. This is why counter apologists like myself should not debate evangelical apologists like yourself regarding the historical evidence for the Resurrection. It is a waste of our time. What we really need to focus on is your delusion, and how we can help you see that the only person present within you, Brian, is…YOU.
Good morning, Brian.
Anyone who claims to know as a fact that the spirit world does not exist is a fool. Most fellow counter apologists that I know would never make this claim. What we would say is that there is no good evidence that the spirit world currently operates within our universe.
How certain are you that the spirit presence which you perceive within you is the resurrected Jesus Christ? 100%?
[…] Source: S6E16 Glorification: Intermediate State, Paradise, Resurrection, and the New Creation […]